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Local is essential for War! Period!

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Kale Kold Caldari Vicious Little Killers	Posted - 2008.04.27 12:35:00 - [1] Local is essential for War! Period! If local goes, something equal has to replace it or how else are you going to find people your at war with or have bad standings with? I am not using locator agents for everyone in EVE just to see if they are in my system and i am not getting info on everyone just to check standings either, that is just absurd! You need some tool, whether its local or not to show you who is in a system and what their standings are to you. Without this, War is effectively ended in EVE. EVE is a PvP game! Please think this through people, local and war is at the very heart of EVE and a change by getting rid of either will change EVE (for the worst) forever. Carebears have ruined every single MMO where their whines have been yielded to. Trammel and Felluca, anyone????
Kale Kold Caldari Vicious Little Killers	Posted - 2008.04.27 12:42:00 - [2] Edited by: Kale Kold on 27/04/2008 12:44:12 Originally by: Patch86 It has been said time and time again: Local is too powerful. I'm sorry i can't see your argument, because whatever replaces local, it will have to have the same functionality of being able to see who is in a system and what standings they have to you because these are essential for war, which defeats the object of making a change.
Kale Kold Caldari Vicious Little Killers	Posted - 2008.04.27 13:01:00 - [3] Originally by: Abrazzar Local: Automatic, No requirements, No effort Intel Tool: Optional, Skill Requirements, Effort Here is your difference. Maybe now you can see what this discussion is all about. Personally, I'd like to make intel gathering a profession for non-combat pilots. First of all, Local is Automatic, No requirements and No effort for EVERYONE at the minute! But you want to penalise people who PvP to more skill training and effort to use a local replacement. Thats not balanced and pretty one sided isn't it!
Kale Kold Caldari Vicious Little Killers	Posted - 2008.04.27 13:04:00 - [4] Originally by: Patch86 Who says it needs to be the whole system, and who says it needs to be instant? You don't do a lot of PvP do you! For war you need instant and full intel on entire systems at a time. Of course whatever replaces Local (if a replacement is waranted at all) will have to be instant and give good intel on entire systems! It's that simple or war ends in EVE!
Kale Kold Caldari Vicious Little Killers	Posted - 2008.04.27 13:05:00 - [5] Edited by: Kale Kold on 27/04/2008 13:05:23 Originally by: Tommy TenKreds That said, heaven forbid that you would have to replace your dependence on complete intelligence with actual strategy. In war, you formulate stragey from intelligence!
Kale Kold Caldari Vicious Little Killers	Posted - 2008.04.27 13:12:00 - [6] Edited by: Kale Kold on 27/04/2008 13:12:19 Originally by: Tommy TenKreds Gaining useful intelligence requires it's own strategy. Lol! Come on then tell me your strategy for gaining intel without local for a tactical advantage in PvP? ...Oh wait... your a carebear corp (Animal Mercantile Executive), headquartered in Jita 4-4, so i guess your PvP experience is kinda thin and you really don't know what the hell you are talking about!
Kale Kold Caldari Vicious Little Killers	Posted - 2008.04.27 13:18:00 - [7] Originally by: Patch86 I would have no problem doing roaming PvP with a range-limited scanner, and with a short delay in pilot/corp information. We'll im glad your not making the decisions!
Kale Kold Caldari Vicious Little Killers	Posted - 2008.04.27 13:20:00 - [8] Edited by: Kale Kold on 27/04/2008 13:23:39 Originally by: Tommy TenKreds The whole of issue of what kind of strategy for gaining intelligence should replace local is currenly under debate. I'm sorry but the argument for replacing Local still hasn't been made!
Kale Kold Caldari Vicious Little Killers	Posted - 2008.04.27 13:23:00 - [9] Originally by: Commander Criton Simply replace local with a stats window when you look at the local channel all you see is basic information here is an example: There is 16 players with neutral standings in the system There is 5 players with Negative standings in the system There is 97 war targets in the system There is 1 Player with good standings in the system And how do you Know their names? Know their age? Check their title? Check their bio? Check their corp? Check their alliance? These are all required intel needs!
Kale Kold Caldari Vicious Little Killers	Posted - 2008.04.27 13:25:00 - [10] Originally by: Tommy TenKreds You frankly don't deserve spoon feeding of arguments. Because there isn't one! And yes i've read the other carebear whines, but still there isn't a valid reason to even consider replacing Local!

Kale Kold Caldari Vicious Little Killers	Posted - 2008.04.27 13:35:00 - [11] Originally by: An Anarchyyt Clearly we all need to listen to Kale Kold and Vicious Little Killers, some of Eve's foremost PvPers. If they can't handle it, and Kale here is one of the greatest PvPers in all of New Eden, how will us lesser forces cope? Lol! You guys better pray that any changes made are made from arguments made by PvPers, or you guys are screwed too. This is a direct challenge on war by carebears, put simply. If local is removed and something put in its place that doesn't atleast do the job as well as local, then war is over.
Kale Kold Caldari Vicious Little Killers	Posted - 2008.04.27 13:38:00 - [12] Originally by: Commander Criton Yep i see its boring but the idea is to make roles more important and to pro-long the fights so maybe a new type of probe that picks up ships registry information? giving you the ship owner which in turn gives you their corp info etc. Then when such a probe is picked up on scan (as every decent PvPer mashes) everyone docks up and effectively everyone is now invisible, that will be a war to remember.
Kale Kold Caldari Vicious Little Killers	Posted - 2008.04.27 13:42:00 - [13] Originally by: Ringo Jeicha You were owned once by looking at an alts bio and concluding he/she/it is a carebear, now stfu, carebear. In real-life, will the invading country tell the invaded country with how many men and equipment they will come? Post with your mains you cowards! ...plus Intel will provide that info and btw EVE != RL!
Kale Kold Caldari Vicious Little Killers	Posted - 2008.04.27 13:43:00 - [14] Originally by: Ringo Jeicha No, war will be more difficult than learning a monkey to do f1-f8. Nice carebear quote again. Coming straight from SWA!
Kale Kold Caldari Vicious Little Killers	Posted - 2008.04.27 13:45:00 - [15] Originally by: Ringo Jeicha Originally by: Kale Kold Originally by: Ringo Jeicha No, war will be more difficult than learning a monkey to do f1-f8. Nice carebear quote again. Coming straight from SWA! And again you seem to fail in understanding the concept of alts. And again you fail to understand the concept of coward!
Kale Kold Caldari Vicious Little Killers	Posted - 2008.04.27 13:48:00 - [16] Edited by: Kale Kold on 27/04/2008 13:48:06 Originally by: Ringo Jeicha You fail! Why the need to go personal? ad hominem and post with ur main!
Kale Kold Caldari Vicious Little Killers	Posted - 2008.04.27 13:56:00 - [17] Originally by: Ringo Jeicha And in any case, a discussion works simple, you make a statement, and you provide proof. So far I haven't seen any elegible proof besides a whine that it will cost you time. For a start, im -10.0 im not going anywhere but lowsec. Second, it doesn't bother me if Local goes really, 'cos i'm a lowsec pirate/gatecamper i kill anything that comes through. I am fighting for PvP as a whole, Local being replaced is Trammel all over again!
Kale Kold Caldari Vicious Little Killers	Posted - 2008.04.27 14:07:00 - [18] Edited by: Kale Kold on 27/04/2008 14:07:27 Originally by: Istvaan Shogaatsu Naw, it's not essential. Let me put it in a way you geeks might grasp. Let's say you're playing World of Warcraft. Your level 83 Chaos Dwarf Semenweaver enters Elwynn Forest. Does he immediately see every hostile in the zone? No, he sees some trees and sheep. He's gotta run around and explore a bit if he wants to find someone to gank. Are they hiding behind that tree? Are they in the inn? You get my drift. Now you have Eve. There's way less locations to be in an average system, than there are potential locations in Elwynn Forest. Yet somehow, the moment we enter Eve's version of a zone, we are immediately aware of everyone in the zone. You've just taken away the thrill of the hunt. Now there's no need to check behind that tree, or visit the inn. You've also taken away surprise. Forgot to use your scanner and warped into a gatecamp? Oops! Elwynn Forest = few hundred meters square? Any EVE system = 10-100AU square? Big difference! WOW = medieval times? EVE = Uber hi-tech? Would people really not know whos in a system with (record keeping?) gates? Finding people really is the first step in any war, the second is formulating a strategy based on who's there/their capabilities, etc to successfully defeat that force. But if you can't find them or know what their capabilities are how you gonna defeat them?
Kale Kold Caldari Vicious Little Killers	Posted - 2008.04.27 14:15:00 - [19] Originally by: Rawr Cristina Originally by: Kale Kold Local is essential for War! Period! No it isn't. War worked just fine before standings in local appeared. Do you really want to take a step backward?
Kale Kold Caldari Vicious Little Killers	Posted - 2008.04.27 14:18:00 - [20] Originally by: Rawr Cristina Do you know why standings in local appeared in the first place? Enlighten me.

Kale Kold Caldari Vicious Little Killers	Posted - 2008.04.27 14:24:00 - [21] Originally by: TimGascoigne Edited by: TimGascoigne on 27/04/2008 14:21:04 Originally by: Patch86 It has been said time and time again: Local is too powerful. Simply removing local would leave a gaping hole and make many professions unplayable. Local needs to be removed and replaced with an integrated, effective, realistic, but inherently limited tool. The Jury is still out on what exactly that replacement should be... oh how is local to powerful? I am in 0.0 all the time and every four seconds I have to check local otherwise I will lose my ship. Seriously you have to look through the entire channel as often as an airport security desk has to scan luggage. Why do people and CCP think that it is too easy to use local it becomes a second in game job especially if you're in systems which have 40+ in them and are 0.0 trade hubs. Getting back to the OP he mentioned that local needs to be replaced with something similar he did not specifically rule out removing local. Although it begs the question if you're going to replace local with something similar why bother at all you just risk damaging gameplay and creating more bugs eve is complicated enough as it is. Let's just have something simple that works like local. If there was a new tool that would mean even less space for me to watch a fight. I don't know how many people in this thread have noticed that the majority of your screen is filled up by things like overview and chat channels and ship interface. You don't actually see that much of space any more especially if you're on a 17 inch screen. Or even better lets..... wait for it...... not change anything and just stop changing things this This is exactly my point. Nobody really has a case for removing or even changing Local. Without it more people are going to get very annoyed if something isn't available as a replacement which does the same thing. And then you ask yourself why bother changing it at all?
Kale Kold Caldari Vicious Little Killers	Posted - 2008.04.27 14:32:00 - [22] Edited by: Kale Kold on 27/04/2008 14:32:29 Originally by: Abrazzar Troll thread is full of troll. Throws over a troll pelt, grabs a femur and does the troll dance We are trolling? why? Because we don't agree with carebears and we care about game balance and not wasting so much time doing long winded, boring shift work on poorly implemented systems?
Kale Kold Caldari Vicious Little Killers	Posted - 2008.04.27 14:42:00 - [23] Originally by: Istvaan Shogaatsu Originally by: Kale Kold Elwynn Forest = few hundred meters square? Any EVE system = 10-100AU square? Big difference! WOW = medieval times? EVE = Uber hi-tech? Would people really not know whos in a system with (record keeping?) gates? Uhhh... Since you seem to be roleplaying a justification, I'll roleplay one back at you. How would the gate maintenance personnel react when they released local information to capsuleers, who promptly used it to conduct a space massacre? Remember, the guys working the gates are normal humans, not pod captains, they still have regard for the six thousand human lives aboard every battleship that dies as a result of their local logging. I think they'd start withholding that information, not wanting to have the blood of hundreds of thousands on their hands ;) Even if their faction was the victor? But enough of this RP BS!
Kale Kold Caldari Vicious Little Killers	Posted - 2008.04.27 14:50:00 - [24] War will suffer! Mark my words.
Kale Kold Caldari Vicious Little Killers	Posted - 2008.04.27 14:57:00 - [25] Originally by: Furb Killer Edited by: Furb Killer on 27/04/2008 14:56:02 I'll take that as a: "I lost but i am too ******** to admit it". That was at kale Sorry did i miss something? Give me one good reason why local is either overpowered or needs getting rid of and i'll give you a counter! Your turn!
Kale Kold Caldari Vicious Little Killers	Posted - 2008.04.27 14:58:00 - [26] Come on bring it on!
Kale Kold Caldari Vicious Little Killers	Posted - 2008.04.27 15:00:00 - [27] Originally by: MineralOel Steuer Originally by: Kale Kold Come on bring it on! oh my stfu troll Ad hominem ...again!
Kale Kold Caldari Vicious Little Killers	Posted - 2008.04.27 15:06:00 - [28] Originally by: Furb Killer Originally by: Kale Kold Originally by: Furb Killer Edited by: Furb Killer on 27/04/2008 14:56:02 I'll take that as a: "I lost but i am too ******** to admit it". That was at kale Sorry did i miss something? Give me one good reason why local is either overpowered or needs getting rid of and i'll give you a counter! Your turn! So wannabe gatecamping pirates cant run when another gang approaches with a size that comes close to the size of the gatecamping gang. So macro'ers cant log off when someone enters local. So people actually got to use those nice scanners for knowing if there is someone in a system So more strategies are possible, when you can hide in a system without everyone knowing who is there, from which corp/alliance and how many. Obvious failure is obvious 1. Anti-pies wont be able to see pirates in the newly removed local! 2. Someone entering the system won't see the macro miner! 3. Will the scanner reach that far? What are you saying? 4. You will never know how many people are hiding in a system, so any strategies are moot! Obvious failure is Obvious!
Kale Kold Caldari Vicious Little Killers	Posted - 2008.04.27 15:29:00 - [29] Edited by: Kale Kold on 27/04/2008 15:30:34 Originally by: Furb Killer Edited by: Furb Killer on 27/04/2008 15:14:57 1. you realise they actually use intel channels, so they know where you are... 2. Thats why the scanner was invented (idiot) 3. Exactly, scanner wont reach that far. So you can hide somewhere if you got a nice safespot without being scanned (or at least not being scanned from the gates). 4. Your stupidity is becoming legendary. Anyway i checked some of your 'pvp' activity on battleclinic. Care to show me your last fair fight? I checked a bit your last kills, and i have found an astonishing one pvp ship you destroyed in the last 30 kills, and that was 3v1 with HIC + battlecruiser + command ship vs 1 battlecruiser. Obvious moron is obvious. You make it pretty clear that local can be removed as intel channel without large problems, as long as the average eve player got a higher iq than 30, unlike you. But you are too stupid to think of any other way than local to get intel. 1. And your going to join every intel channel in every system you visit, kinda like a 'Local' channel? 2. Really? 3. Yay, we can all hide from each other, that will be fun. Loggin in to sit in the dark for 6hrs straight! 4. Ad Hominem ...again! Obvious moron is obvious. See my other posts. Btw i see you have hardly no kills! and are ranked 98000 or sumits!!! like you should be telling me about PvP??? lol!
Kale Kold Caldari Vicious Little Killers	Posted - 2008.04.27 15:34:00 - [30] Originally by: JADE DRAG0NESS Local is essential to carebear pirates and there wars because its been there crutch for a long time. Get rid of local and any intelligent player will adapt to the change. Actually Local is trivial for pirating. See my other posts.

Kale Kold Caldari Vicious Little Killers	Posted - 2008.04.27 15:50:00 - [31] Originally by: Furb Killer I indeed dont have much pvp kills. No **! Originally by:** Furb Killer Earning isk for nicer mission ship, then gonna do pvp again. But i do it solo, and wont run away for a fight like you would. I am not a pirate, if i wanted i would have had twice as many kills. What 12 kills instead of 6? Don't talk to me about PvP noob! Originally by: Furb Killer If you would look at those kills, you would know they all had combat fitting (well except the pod, but he was stupid enough not to warp out), and that it was a 6 vs 1 situation. I knew they outnumbered me, but i didnt run like you would. I accepted it and made the best of it. I took out 4 of their ships before i was destroyed, and that was the first time i did solo pvp. Intresting huh, my first time solo pvp i got more fair kills than you with all your experience. You dont need much pvp experience to use some logic and realise you are stupid. And none of my kills are PvP fitted? purlease! 1. You wont know im there without Local! 2. Lol! 3. Do you really think we dont ALL have covert/black ops alts? 4. ? 5. We don't just gatecamp you know!
Kale Kold Caldari Vicious Little Killers	Posted - 2008.04.27 16:06:00 - [32] Originally by: RuleoftheBone You got that right Agreed!
Kale Kold Caldari Vicious Little Killers	Posted - 2008.04.27 16:15:00 - [33] Originally by: Furb Killer Do you have more real kills than i have? Your last kills: iteron IV (cargo expanders) caracel (pve fit) dominix (no tank fitted at all, pve logistic setup) ferox (pve setup) drake (pve setup) ibis (normal setup) kestrel (not really fitted) mammoth (cargo expanders) caracel (circus fitting) imicus (no fitting) vexor (warpstabs vs hic) drake (half fitted) imicus (noob fitted, pve) iteron IV (mining fitted i guess) kestrel (pve fitted) ibis (normal fitting) prowler (no cloak fitted = dead) bestower (cargo expanders) drake (pve fitted) myrmidon (w00t first pvp fit, sucky one though. And 3v1) kestrel (pve fitted) caracel (half pve fitted) merlin (cargo expanders) badger (no fitting) omen (pvp fitting, wow second one) raven (pvp fitted i guess, too bad he forgot to fit his tank) taranis (pvp fitted, yeah 3 in a row) covetor (expanders) After that i had enough of it. Really impressed by your kills. I suppose fair fights arent your strongest point. And i bet i've made money in the last 2 weeks than you've ever seen! Pirating is about money not fair fights!!!
Kale Kold Caldari Vicious Little Killers	Posted - 2008.04.27 16:17:00 - [34] Edited by: Kale Kold on 27/04/2008 16:19:14 Originally by: Furb Killer Lmao, you have no idea what pirating is. How much isk did you make from the ibis? And all the kestrel's? Actually Mr Jolly, one of my corp m8s killed an ibis the other day that had a dread BP in it so there you go. Originally by: Furb Killer And why exactly would remove local hurt you? So you cant run anymore when enemies come... You wouldn't find me without local!
Kale Kold Caldari Vicious Little Killers	Posted - 2008.04.27 16:20:00 - [35] Originally by: Tommy TenKreds Have you managed to figure out yet that while intelligence is essential to warfare, local is not? Ad Hominem!
Kale Kold Caldari Vicious Little Killers	Posted - 2008.04.27 16:22:00 - [36] Originally by: ArmyOfMe let this thread die, op is clearly a moron. learn to adapt just like everyone else playing Ah an intelligent answer from an old enemy ...oh wait!
Kale Kold Caldari Vicious Little Killers	Posted - 2008.04.27 16:25:00 - [37] Originally by: Cordran Li What do you mean by "an argument hasn't been made to replace local?" Well what is it then? because nobody can make one that stands scrutiny!
Kale Kold Caldari Vicious Little Killers	Posted - 2008.04.27 16:33:00 - [38] Originally by: Cordran Li You didn't answer my question. An argument has not been made that warrants the Local channel being examined to see of it is overpowered or is needing to be replaced by another intel tool. As far as i am aware the Local channel is available to everybody in exactly the same capacity so as not to give any particular group of people an unfair advantage. This has so far to be challenged in any decent and intelligent way, other than 'waaaa i tried to gank that macro miner and he logged when i entered system, waaa'.
Kale Kold Caldari Vicious Little Killers	Posted - 2008.04.27 16:41:00 - [39] Originally by: Caiman Graystock Why the sudden surge of threads about this, are they actually considering removing local? It has been said that Local is being changed, although i can't find the dev post now.
Kale Kold Caldari Vicious Little Killers	Posted - 2008.04.27 16:55:00 - [40] Edited by: Kale Kold on 27/04/2008 16:55:09 Originally by: Tommy TenKreds Originally by: Kale Kold Originally by: Tommy TenKreds Have you managed to figure out yet that while intelligence is essential to warfare, local is not? Ad Hominem! What? What a joke. Ad Hominem! Stay on topic please.

Kale Kold Caldari Vicious Little Killers	Posted - 2008.04.27 18:28:00 - [41] Originally by: Lee Thrace i must say i have been looking forward to local being gone since i started eve back in 2005! just think of all the not knowing that will come of it. Yeah your gonna have to take your entire fleet with you at all times, just incase you meet another blob which you can't see.
Kale Kold Caldari Vicious Little Killers	Posted - 2008.04.27 18:38:00 - [42] Originally by: Cailais Unless large blobs / fleets are the very thing that do appear on the scanner. The argument for removing local has come a long way from just getting rid of it: you really need to keep up. Ok, so what constitutes a large fleet/blob? 5 ships?, 10 ships?, 15 ships?, 20 ships?, 50 ships? You see what i did there? It's a stupid idea!
Kale Kold Caldari Vicious Little Killers	Posted - 2008.04.27 19:11:00 - [43] Originally by: Anubis Xian what is going to happen if local is removed? Tactical Skill. Explain please.
Kale Kold Caldari Vicious Little Killers	Posted - 2008.04.27 19:31:00 - [44] Originally by: OffBeaT man, earn your kill & track him, it might take you a few weeks too find him but you can do it.. you guys just sound lazy too me. If it took me weeks to find someone, i'd cancel my sub and play a game that was fun. No seriously are you saying war should be more protracted?
Kale Kold Caldari Vicious Little Killers	Posted - 2008.04.27 21:52:00 - [45] Originally by: Aria Seniste Anyone who claims that people who think local should stay are just "lazy" have clearly never PVPed. Ok, let me ask you something: How do you "Stop being lazy and get intel" as seems to be the suggestion of what to do when local is gone? ...Scouts on EVERY stargate? Ok, so now you need a covert ops cloaked on every gate for say.. 3-4 jumps around to see what comes in and out of a system. If a gate isn't covered, an enemy fleet can completely dissapear by jumping through it. Oh, that will create a fun new intel gathering profession! Let me tell you, the most exciting thing I've ever done in EVE is sitting at a gate, cloaked, for several hours during a long engagement.. on the chance that enemies might come through. That sounds much more fun than fighting. And as for intel.. people seem to forget something: Local only gives names and standings. It does not give a fleets position in that system. It does not give ship types. What do you need to find where the fleet is sitting in a system and what ships they're flying...? Scouts! Oh my, isn't this a strange turn of events. You mean.. local isn't a 100% perfect intel tool? Honestly. Put some thoughts into your post. You need scouts if you want to see a fleet several jumps out, even if they're just watching local. Should a 100 man fleet be able to dissapear into your home system without leaving you any knowledge, even if they've logged out or are still around? ITT: Carebears pretend to have solutions, because they read threads about local and that makes them experts. Full of Win! And iterates exactly all my points! You Win the thread!
Kale Kold Caldari Vicious Little Killers	Posted - 2008.04.27 22:01:00 - [46] Edited by: Kale Kold on 27/04/2008 22:01:57 Originally by: James Lyrus Actually, it's the carebears that want to keep local. Being able to see a hostile enter system and log/cloak/dock is perfect for the avoidant of risk. 'intel' works two ways - you need to find your target, but then they don't get to see you coming, as soon as you enter system. Local didn't used to have standings. Wars worked then, too. But y'know, I think you're attacking a straw man here. No one's suggesting 'just removing it', because both sides of a fight are disadvantaged. Most of the suggestions I've seen are along the lines of replacing it, with a more coherant intel system, that isn't quite as trivial as 'check a chat channel'. Yes but if you replace it, the replacment has to have at least the same functionality, thus negating the need to replace it. Adding skills to the mix just adds more overhead for newer people, which are the ones that do most whining?
Kale Kold Caldari Vicious Little Killers	Posted - 2008.04.28 07:45:00 - [47] Originally by: Skjorta The game would get really boring really quickly, spending days looking around empty systems for players. You all act as if local tells you exactly where they are, what they are flying and how their ship is set up. It gives you a name and maybe a colored box. The rest you have to deduce and decide for yourself. Which is very reasonable tbh. Exactly! Who wants to work in a game!
Kale Kold Caldari Vicious Little Killers	Posted - 2008.04.28 17:52:00 - [48] Originally by: Lee Thrace c'mon take a chance! And risk halting the enjoyment of hundreds of thousands of players and collapsing CCP's as a business? NO!!!

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